Pressure, force, and dynamic motion

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Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Guy K on Dec. 6, 2020, 1:08 p.m.

Tyler
Thanks to you and your site along with numerous lessons from some pretty good teachers, I’ve really improved my game in the last 5 years (I’ve tried but failed to figure out some way to come out and see you in person but the closest I can easily get is San Diego to visit my youngest son - maybe someday.)

So in my quest for 1% better every day I have arrived this year in how I can better use the ground (and be more dynamic/athletic) short of buying a swing cat 3D motion plate, lol. I get the slight lateral shift to start the swing, max pressure around p3 with a pressure shift to my left side by p5, etc. I’ve read what I can find, watched stuff from Scott Lynn, Sasho, etc. and viewed Dr. Kwon’s Instagram where he has subjects do variations of step drills. Even took the swing cat level 1 certification.

I’ve looked thru the site and found some GRF and am wondering if you have plans for any further videos on the topic - insights, analysis, drills, how to self identify potential patterns, etc? Or maybe you can point me to videos where you have include pressure, grf, etc. I get that this is a tough area cause you cannot see these forces and we humans are messy, to quote Scott Lynn.

Thanks
Guy

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 6, 2020, 6:16 p.m.

Hey Guy,

It seems that more of our members have some lower body questions. So I'll do a round of videos presenting some of my more common drills. I do use step drills a lot, but I also use drills to try to isolate the hip muscles from the knee muscles. The challenge with the GRF is that trying to do it isn't necessarily how you do it. Moving better gets better patterns, where trying to force a pattern can sometimes disrupt the movement. In my experience, if you want to move your legs better, make sure the individual segments work and then work primarily on the timing of the pressure during the downswing. Stay tuned, I'll get some lower body education drills filmed by the end of the year.

Happy Golfing,

Tyler

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Guy K on Dec. 7, 2020, 4:20 a.m.

Looking forward to the videos.

Currently I've been doing a suite of step drills starting with swinging the club forward but with variations on stance width, stepping both forward and backward, or just forward and this mixed in with regular swings.

I'd be interested also in any RNT drills that one can do - I've used resistance bands above my knees to have to work against having them pulled together, and have a gravity fit which is great for width. I've seen a few from Scott Lynn and Tony Ruggerio but they typically require having a second person involved to pull you in the opposite direction of the desired motion. I'm a fan of the idea of the one who does the work, does the learning.

Thanks again,
Guy

 Last edited by: Guy K on Dec. 7, 2020, 6:14 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 7, 2020, 1:24 p.m.

In the interim, if you want to post a couple videos of you doing step drills or lower body activation drills to the "help my swing" section, I'm happy to give you my 2 cents. It might help.

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Nick W on Dec. 9, 2020, 5:55 p.m.

Tyler and Guy,
Interesting that you brought this topic up now as I was thinking about the same thing. Although maybe with the recent distance phenomenon on Tour, more people are talking GFR.

Tyler,
I know you have some videos on force plates and pressure mats and their limitations. I’m always tempted by feedback devices though and was thinking about buying some of those SALTED in soles which provide pressure feedback through sole inserts.
I’d second Guy’s request for some more GFR content, both in trend of how to generate more and how much is optional (can there be too much?)

Very interesting topic!

Nick

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 10, 2020, 7:56 a.m.

I'll do a few videos on it, but the quick summary is that, in my opinion, the GRF stuff is overdone in golf. It's something that's easy to measure, so there is a lot of capability to look at it easily. But I don't find the information that useful. I'll explain.

Let's say, in the gym, you were working on squatting. You wanted to squat more. As your coach, I say, "that's easy, just push against the ground harder. In fact, to help you, I'm going to put more weight on the bar which will make it easier to push harder". I know a coach in track and field. They used to do a lot with GRF, but they found that athletes didn't benefit from trying to improve the pattern. Saying push against the ground this way or that way rarely changed the pattern for the better. Instead, you want to make sure that each segment in the chain knows how to contribute. In this case, knowing how to use your ankles, knees, hips, core, and ribs will all help improve your GRF pattern. I would love to have force plates for research purposes, but I also have very few students that would likely benefit from them coaching wise.

Yes, higher GRF will hit the ball further, as long as it's at the right timing (around lead arm parallel in the downswing). If you reach a peak later than that, you won't get the energy into the club in time. So for many athletes, good GRF patterns in golf feel more bouncy than forceful. That's why most of the GRF drills involve stepping or quicker movements (like Mike Adams force pedal).

In my experience, working on speed is risky unless you have decent face and path control. Almost always, when you swing faster, initially your low point and curve will be off. So you'd better know how to readjust it to match the new power sequence.

As far as the insoles, I don't know much about them, but I haven't had much success with pressure patterns. For the same issues. In my experience, usually if your using your feet incorrectly against the ground, it's because of something happening in your core. If you're not using your core correctly, it's likely related to how you are organizing the path and face...

That said, I do have some more lower body drills that I use that I'll record for the site here shortly. So many fun projects to work on for you guys :)

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Guy K on Dec. 10, 2020, 2:34 p.m.

Appreciate any additional content on this area. Rewatched your recent use the hips video and this is one along the lines I’m thinking. Maybe create a playlist of existing videos on the “pivot” cause as I look you have a lot but they just aren’t grouped into one easy to find playlist? Easier said then done - you’ve amassed quite the catalog of videos.

 Last edited by: Guy K on Dec. 10, 2020, 2:37 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 10, 2020, 7:10 p.m.

That's a good suggestion. I'll organize it this Sunday!

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Nick W on Dec. 10, 2020, 7:30 p.m.

Tyler,
This is the kind of thoughtful response that makes your site so great.

I know that when I feel like I’m using the ground better, my core is engaged better. I also know how easy it is to fall into the trap of using a metric just because we see it.

As I mentioned I’m a sucker for golf training gadgets, so I’d seen the force pedal, but it almost seemed to simple be worth it. Would it be worthwhile in your opinion? Or is it just a part of that overrated GRF training?

Something else that really rang true to me is working on speed before having the right mechanics for face, path and low point. I got excited about speed and started working on it, which increased my CHS, but also my scores. Working on speed in a silo, for me, exacerbated my biggest swing flaws. I’m taking a much longer term approach now, focusing on the basic mechanics first before working on any additional speed training.

I’m looking forward to the new playlist!

Nick

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 13, 2020, 10:04 a.m.

Yes, I think it can be a good metric in the right hands. If you are using it as a way to calibrate what movements help you increase the number and the timing. But I think many golfers would be surprised by what movements move the needle. It might be an arm movement, or an upper-body movement, that spikes the ground better. Trying to spike the ground might be effective for a very small minority of golfers.

If you are really "feel deficient", then perhaps the force pedal could be a good short term aid. I've used a tennis ball cut in half before. It's helpful for 20-50 balls or so.

I've seen similar reactions to your experience frequently. Just this week I had a guy come in struggling. He was doing really well a couple of months ago but was struggling with a 2-way driver miss and iron low point issues. After looking at his swing and seeing his sequencing getting more upper body dominant, I asked what he has been up to. He started using speed sticks and doing a virtual boxing class. He picked up speed, but like you, his scores jumped too. For most, the speed gains are incremental compared to the consistency loss when the sequence gets disrupted. I think this is why there are more good stories of either elite golfers, or beginner golfers doing well with speed training. That middle handicap zone is potentially playing with fire by randomly learning to swing faster.

Tyler

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 13, 2020, 4:59 p.m.

Alright, here's a playlist of most (if not all) of my current pivot drills. But I'll add some more when I film them in the next couple of weeks.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/playlist/pivot-drills,20729/

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Guy K on Dec. 13, 2020, 6:15 p.m.

Thanks. Took a quick glance. Nice list. Going to revisit them.

So much gold - i have found myself doing versions of the sasho two step and hogan two step - on the sasho i pause at left arm parallel and then do pumps to the top and on hogan i start with feet close together and swing forward while stepping back then can pause again at p3 and step forward as going to the top - I like to do these drills without a club and with pause, then without pause , then add a club. That's just couple of the drills I forgot you even had so thanks again for creating this playlist.

 Last edited by: Guy K on Dec. 15, 2020, 5:01 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Ed C on Dec. 16, 2020, 12:30 a.m.

"For most, the speed gains are incremental compared to the consistency loss when the sequence gets disrupted. I think this is why there are more good stories of either elite golfers, or beginner golfers doing well with speed training. That middle handicap zone is potentially playing with fire by randomly learning to swing faster."

As a mid handicapper myself, what Tyler describes was exactly my experience with speed sticks (going from a 7 to 10 handicap). Speed sticks helped me gain 7+ mph, which enabled my longest drive each day to gain 10-15 yds, but average driving distance was flat due to more mis-hits off the tee. A year later, I still have 4-5 mph of those speed gains.

If I had to do it all over again I would not buy the speed sticks unless I was prepared to do the speed training under the trained eye of a swing coach. Learning the driver fundamentals in the GSA system is what actually helped to increase driving distance far more, without any increase in swing speed.

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Nick W on Dec. 16, 2020, 11:30 a.m.

Ed,
My experience was even more dramatic than yours. For a one swing max, I picked up 10mph or more (although some of that was returning to my prior highs). Despite that CHS gain, I lost distance because I developed an awful hook and lost low point control. Some of my rounds, I’d have been better off hitting a 9 iron off each tee than driver because I was hitting them so far offline that they did not have any distance and I suffered numerous penalty strokes. The swing sticks engrained some of my big errors (spinning the shoulders out too early, steep swing path, upper body dominant swing, not enough lead wrist supination at impact), but I was swinging faster.
It is a much harder route to get the swing fundamentals down than to just swing hard with swing sticks, but my experience suggests it is by far more effective.
It’s a distance game now as much as ever so chasing CHS is tempting and seems like the right thing to do, but clearly has adverse effects on some people. I look forward to the day when my swing is in a good enough spot to use the swing sticks as intended!

Nick

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Re: Pressure, force, and dynamic motion  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 20, 2020, 9:47 a.m.

I think it's interesting that no one has shared a story of using the sticks to gain 10 MPH without losing contact. The challenge with those sticks is that they give you a good swing direction, but no training on face control or low point. So it's really common for golfers to swing it faster, but lose the face and low point.

Thanks for sharing your stories!

I'm thrilled to see you all learning the better approach. A simple rule of thumb is to dive into path and face control before power training 😁

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