Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move

Reply

Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: John A on Dec. 5, 2020, 8:44 a.m.

Tyler,

I think that you have got many facts wrong regarding your Motorcycle Move opinions.

You seemingly believe that when a lead wrist flexion-graph shows a motion towards decreasing lead wrist extension (and in the direction of lead wrist flexion) during the early-mid downswing - as seen in your transition style graph - that the golfer must be applying the motorcycle move. So, in you video labelled "Flexing your Wrist - Golf Club Face Motorcycle Move" you incorrectly label Henrik Stenson as using the motorcycle move between P4 => P6 because his lead wrist is less extended at P6 than it was at P4. However, Henrik's clubface does not close relative to his clubhead arc (or relative to the watchface area of his lead lower forearm) between P4 => P6 even though his lead wrist is becoming less extended - because he is using the intact LFFW/GFLW golf swing technique as described in the following review paper at https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/LeadWristBowing.html .

The key point that you do not seemingly understand is the fact that the lead wrist will become more extended if the golfer uses an intact LFFW/GFLW golf swing technique as it becomes more radially deviated, and that it will become less extended as it becomes more ulnar deviated. Here is the image - https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Author-BowingTwelve.jpg - showing that fact where the clubshaft remains straight-line-aligned with the lead arm and where the clubface does not close - as the author moves his lead wrist in the direction of either radial deviation, or ulnar deviation, while maintaining a GFLW (even though the degree of lead wrist dorsiflexion changes to a marked degree).

You also incorrectly claim that it is possible to perform the motorcycle move to close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc after P6 and you use Rory Sabbatinni as an example. However, in that review paper, the author shows that lead wrist bowing after P6 (when the lead wrist becomes ulnar deviated) causes clubshaft angulation without any clubface closing. That means that bowing the lead wrist between P6 => P7 will cause forward shaft lean, but it will not close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc. In fact, the increased degree of forward shaft lean at impact (secondary to lead wrist bowing happening in the later downswing when the lead wrist increasingly ulnar-deviates) opens the clubface relative to the ball-target line and the golfer will need more (not less) lead forearm supination to get the clubface square by impact.

You also seemingly believe that using the motorcycle move between P4 => P6, and even further to slightly beyond impact (as you demonstrate in your "continuing motorcycle move" video), will decrease the amount of lead forearm supination that is normally required between P6 => P7 in order to get a square clubface by impact. However, you fail to take into account the fact that the clubface closing benefit of ~20-25 degrees that is obtained by using the motorcycle move between P4 => P6 is offset by the clubface-opening effect of continuing to maintain a bowed lead wrist between P6 => P7, which causes the clubshaft to angle backwards away from the target. In that review paper, the author uses Collin Morikawa as an example, and he shows that Colin Morikawa comes into impact with a lot of forward shaft lean (where the hands are well ahead of the clubhead at impact). That opens the clubface relative to the ball-target line and that phenomenon necessitates more counterclockwise rotation of the lead hand in the later downswing. Finally, look at Jon Rahm's 3D lead forearm supination graph in that review paper, and note how much and how rapidly he has to supinate his lead forearm in his later downswing - even though he is a prototypical example of a golfer who uses the bowed lead wrist technique.

 Last edited by: John A on Dec. 5, 2020, 8:44 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 6, 2020, 10:40 a.m.

Thanks for the comment/concern. My goal with the site is to help do-it-yourself golfers find ways to improve their swing. There are three primary needs with your golf swing.
1. Control the face-to-path = hit it straight(ish)
2. Control the path = hit it solid
3. Create speed = hit it far

The motorcycle move falls under the category of controlling the face-to-path. My students will tell you that I'm not concerned with how you do it, so long as you have a repeatable way of controlling the curve. I have some students who figure it out from lead wrist flexion, others from focusing on the trail arm. Some feel the body, some feel the club. That's why there are a number of drills associated with the motorcycle move.

On 3D, the pros have shown that to control the club face and create lag requires some amount of shaft twisting. If working on the motorcycle move is not helping your game, then there is a good chance you don't need it. Maybe you are already controlling the clubface well enough and need to prioritize one of the other skills to improve your swing. I've had thousands of online and in-person students who've needed to learn to control the club face better to allow them to improve their path and pivot. But it's not a need for everyone at all times. If you want some guidance with your swing, then please post a video to the "help my swing" section of the forum. Then we can decide if you actually need to work on clubface control, or if there is a higher priority to address first. Good luck!

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: Guy K on Dec. 6, 2020, 12:13 p.m.

I doubt that Jeff Mann has any serious interest in improving his swing or knowledge of the swing but rather wants to engage in an argument where he pulls out tons of 2D video and loads of words to dominate the conversation. His purpose appears only to argue. Kudos for not taking the bait.

Mann posted almost this exact statement on his website yesterday and noted that he posted it here and that it might not be visible if you banned his comments.

It's your forum for the members and I for one have no issue with banning him or any surrogates for him from the site if they are going to post items only to engage in argument which is Mann's MO (and I have seen him do this on golfwrx via a surrogate in the past).

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: Nick W on Dec. 6, 2020, 4:28 p.m.

I know I'm in the minority because I've seen the widespread general dislike of Mann's commentary. I like his detailed approach and that he puts his material out there for free. His work can be a little verbose for me as well. Also, although I can appreciate him going through and evaluating other's swing theories, I still feel like I don't have a great grasp of the swing he prefers. Also, a site like GSA has a lot of drills/practice strategies, whereas I don't see that with Mann.

Even though Mann disagreed with Tyler on some items in his article critically reviewing Tyler's work, I still found it interesting to read.

People have been trying to figure out the best way to swing a golf club for over 100 years and have different opinions on how to do it. Shoot, I think about how many people have studied Ben Hogan and come to different conclusions.

So, I find it somewhat interesting to read and see a different opinion.

Nick

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: John A on Dec. 6, 2020, 11:54 p.m.

Nick,

You are in a very small minority group when it comes to being open-minded about Jeff Mann's opinions regarding golf swing biomechanics. In that recent review paper that he wrote regarding the "effect of lead wrist bowing on the clubface and clubshaft" he stated that his personal swing technique preference is the intact LFFW/GFLW swing technique that is used by many pro golfers (eg. Henrik Stenson, Adam Scott, Justin Rose and Tiger Woods) although he openly admitted that the bowed lead wrist technique is better in terms of i) allowing a golfer to potentially have a greater degree of mechanical stability of the lead wrist through impact, ii) allowing a golfer to obtain forward shaft lean at impact in a more biomechanically natural manner and iii) allowing a golfer to more efficiently perform a drive-hold hand release action through impact. However, he does not think that the Motorcycle Move is useful from a clubface-closing perspective because it only closes the clubface relative to the clubhead arc by 20-30 degrees in the early-mid downswing, and that benefit is offset by the fact that continuously maintaining a bowed lead wrist between P6 => impact causes a large degree of backwards angulation of the clubshaft relative to the hands, which opens the clubface relative to the ball-target line (without affecting the degree of clubface closing relative to the clubhead arc) - and that fact means that a golfer is still likely going to need to perform a lot of lead forearm supination pre-impact in order to square the clubface by impact (as demonstrated in Jon Rahm's 3D lead forearm supination graph).

Jeff Mann's golf website never discusses drills because he is a golf theorist, who is trying to better understand the golf swing biomechanics/mechanics used by skilled pro golfers, and he is not a golf instructor.

Guy wrote-"I doubt that Jeff Mann has any serious interest in improving his swing or knowledge of the swing but rather wants to engage in an argument where he pulls out tons of 2D video and loads of words to dominate the conversation. His purpose appears only to argue." That's a very typical response from golfers who are mentally blinded by their strong emotional biases. Jeff Mann may be very argumentative, but he is passionately interested in understanding how the full golf swings works in skilled pro golfers from a biomechanical/mechanical perspective. He is also very willing to admit that he is often wrong, and that recent review paper was specifically written to correct some gross errors that he previously made with respect to the effect of lead wrist bowing on the clubface and clubshaft.

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: John A on Dec. 7, 2020, 8:31 a.m.

When it comes to political opinions, one may espouse conservative views and support the Republican party, or one may harbor liberal views and support the Democratic party. A person's political views do not have to be supported by objective "facts" rather than subjective "alternative facts" (which are fiction). However, whether you are a conservative or a liberal from a political viewpoint perspective, it is an "alternative fact" to believe that i) there was massive fraud in the recent US Presidential election and that ii) Trump actually won the election.

The same applies to golf swing biomechanics - there are "facts" and "alternative facts". So, even if a golfer personally likes (or does not like) to use Tyler's recommended Motorcycle Move, there are incontrovertible "facts" regarding the Motorcycle Move.

The Motorcycle Move (when performed in the late backswing or early downswing by a golfer using a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip strength and who bows his lead wrist when his lead wrist is radially deviated) closes his clubface relative to the clubhead arc and also relative to the watchface area of the back of his lower lead forearm. If the lead wrist looks less extended at P6 compared to P4 - as seen in Henrik Stenson's early-mid downswing - one could reasonably argue that his lead wrist appears to more bowed, but it is not "factual" to claim that he is using the Motorcycle Move if the clubface does not close relative to the clubhead arc and also relative to the watchface area on the back of the lower lead forearm. So, I have attached a capture image comparing Tyler Ferrell to Henrik Stenson at their respective P5.5 positions. In image 1, one can clearly see that Tyler is using a bowed lead wrist maneuver and one can also clearly see that it is causing his clubface to close relative to his clubhead arc and also relative to the watchface area on the back of his lower lead forearm. Images 2 and 3 show Henrik Stenson at the same comparable P5.5 position - his lead wrist may be less extended at P5.5 than it was at P4, but he cannot actually be performing the Motorcycle Move because his clubface is not closing relative to his clubhead arc or relative to the watchface area on the back of his lower lead forearm.

Another "fact" regarding the Motorcycle Move. If the Motorcyle Move is designed to close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc, then it cannot be used to close the clubface in the later downswing between P6.5 => P7 (when the lead wrist becomes increasingly more ulnar deviated) if the golfer uses a strong lead hand grip strength, like John Senden. In the video called "Flexing your Wrist - Golf Club Face Motorcycle Move", Tyler claims that John Senden is using the Motorcycle Move. It is true that John Senden is flexing his lead wrist more through impact than it was at P6, but that lead wrist flexing action cannot be closing his clubface relative to his clubhead arc for two reasons. First of all, lead wrist bowing happening when the lead wrist becomes more ulnar deviated causes clubshaft angulation without any clubface closing effect. Secondly, the back of John Senden's lead wrist/hand is roughly parallel to the functional swingplane in the later downswing near impact and it is not perpendicular to the swingplane (as seen in a golfer who uses a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip strength). Therefore, increased lead wrist flexion can alter the accumulator #3 angle ( obtuse angle between the clubshaft and the lead forearm in the plane of the VSP), but it cannot close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc because the clubhead arc near impact is roughly perpendicular to the plane of motion of lead wrist flexing.

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 7, 2020, 1:22 p.m.

Since I'm not a golf theorist, my goal is to help golfers practically able the golf science theory to their own games. If the motorcycle move doesn't close the face, that's fine. I'm happy if a better theory comes up that explains why it works. But what I mean by works is that over the last 15 years I have seen thousands of golfers online and in-person improve their clubface control and shaft lean as a result of the motorcycle drills I present on the site. So if you have a different explanation as to why the drills make the ball slice less, lower the flight, improve centeredness of contact then I'm happy to entertain new theories.

As I mentioned before, for some it's tricky to figure out the individual nuances of how to apply it to yourself. If you struggle with your clubface control, then please, post a swing to the "help my swing" section of the forum. Include a video of your swing and you trying to do the 9-3 motorcycle drill. That's usually a great place for troubleshooting any issue your having with face control or shaft lean. I hope to see your swing soon! Good luck.

Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: John A on Dec. 8, 2020, 8:32 a.m.

Tyler,

You wrote-: "If the motorcycle move doesn't close the face, that's fine. I'm happy if a better theory comes up that explains why it works. But what I mean by works is that over the last 15 years I have seen thousands of golfers online and in-person improve their clubface control and shaft lean as a result of the motorcycle drills I present on the site. So if you have a different explanation as to why the drills make the ball slice less, lower the flight, improve centeredness of contact then I'm happy to entertain new theories."

The Motorcycle Move (if performed during the late backswing or early downswing when the lead wrist is radially deviated) does close the clubface by 20-30 degrees relative to the clubhead arc. However, that does not necessarily decrease the total amount of lead forearm supination required in the later downswing in order to get a square clubface by impact - because continued lead wrist bowing in the later downswing angles the clubshaft backwards relative to the hands and opens the clubface relative to the ball-target line, and an additional amount of lead forearm supination is required to counter that effect. I have attached Jon Rahm's 3D graph (see blue lead forearm supination graph), which shows that he still has to use a large amount of lead forearm supination in his later downswing in order to get a square clubface by impact - even though he uses the Motorcycle Move. A better theory as to why your Motorcycle Move works very well in terms of enhancing a golfer's ball-striking ability relates to the clubshaft angulation phenomenon where lead wrist bowing in the later downswing allows a golfer to approach impact with forward shaft lean, which decreases the dynamic loft at impact and leads to a solid strike with a lower ball flight. Secondly, I also think that continuing to maintain a bowed lead wrist through impact (to P7.2+) is more mechanically stable than a non-bowed lead wrist scenario. Thirdly, you also demonstrate and perform a DH-hand release action between P7 => P7.2 in your "real life" golf swing that allows you to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc between P7 => P7.2 - look at your avatar that accompanies your post. Note that you still have a slightly bowed lead wrist, that you still have a bent right wrist, and you do not allow the clubshaft to bypass your lead forearm (from an angular rotational perspective) even though you are well into your early followthrough.

Now, although you actually use a DH-hand release action in your personal golf swing action, you incorrectly describe what is happening in your DH-hand release action through impact. I have attached capture images of your ping pong bat drill. In image 1, you have a cupped lead wrist. In image 2, you are performing the Motorcycle Move maneuver, which closes the bat's face (clubface) relative to the clubhead arc. In image 3, your bat's face is still wide open to the ball-target line (even though you closed it relative to the clubhead arc by ~25 degrees between image 1 => image 2). So, you still need to rapidly supinate your lead forearm to get the face square to the target by impact (as seen in Jon Rahm's lead forearm supination graph). In image 4, you have continued to rapidly supinate your lead forearm in an uninterrupted manner through impact so that the back of your lead wrist/hand faces away from the ball-target line at the P7.2 position and your bat's face faces the ground, and that action represents a roller subtype of non-DH hand release action. However, that ping pong bat drill image 4 is not reflective of what you actually do in your "real life" golf swing action. Your avatar image better reflects reality - note that the back of your lead hand has not rotated as much counterclockwise. More importantly, the rotation of the back of your lead hand between P7 => P7.2 is mainly due to a counterclockwise rotation of your lead humerus and not primarily due to lead forearm supination - see the attached image from your "Stock Tour Swing" book. Image 1 is at impact where your lead humerus is internally rotated so that you cannot see your lead antecubital fossa. Note that I have drawn two red dots over your lower radial bone in your lead lower forearm. Image 2 is at the P8 position. Note how much you have rotated your lead humerus counterclockwise between image 1 and image 2. Note that I have drawn a green dot over your lead antecubital fossa and if you look at the relationship of the red dots to that green dot, you can see that there was very little lead forearm supination happening between image 1 and image 2. Look at your clubface in image 2 - it is facing away from the ball-target line and it is near-vertical, but it is not facing the ground (as seen in your Ping Pong bat drill). I think that you actually use a DH-hand release action between P7 => P7.2 in your "real life" golf swing action - like Jon Rahm. Look at Jon Rahm's 3D lead forearm supination graph immediately post-impact - see the yellow arrow. The yellow arrow is pointing at a blip-plateau in Jon Rahm's lead forearm supination graph where his lead forearm temporarily stops rotating rapidly between P7 - P7.2 (or even further to P7.4) before starting to rapidly supinate again after P7.4. I suspect that you also use the same DH-hand release technique where you temporarily slow down your lead forearm supination between P7 => P7.2 before you start to again rapidly supinate in your later followthrough (even though you do not teach a DH-hand release action correctly in your golf instructional videos in terms of describing the underlying biomechanics in an accurate manner).

 Last edited by: John A on Dec. 8, 2020, 4:21 p.m., edited 4 times in total.
Reply

Re: Opinions regarding the Motorcycle Move  

  By: Tyler F on Dec. 8, 2020, 7:53 p.m.

If you want to post a swing, or a drill swing, and talk through how to work on clubface squaring in your swing. The offer to help you still stands. Or, if you want to discuss alternative theories on why the drills on this site have given my student success. Please share those thoughts too. But either way, I hope you find ways to master your own clubface control. Good luck with your journey.

Click here to start your free 7 day trial. No credit card required.